Image credit: Scott Jacobsen.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen is the publisher of In-Sight Publishing (ISBN: 978-1-0692343) and Editor-in-Chief of In-Sight: Interviews (ISSN: 2369-6885). He writes for The Good Men Project, The Humanist, International Policy Digest (ISSN: 2332-9416), Basic Income Earth Network (UK Registered Charity 1177066), A Further Inquiry, and other media. He is a member in good standing of numerous media organizations.
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The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Lon Ostrander is the president of The Clergy Project, a nonprofit organization that provides support to current and former religious leaders who no longer hold supernatural beliefs. A former Wesleyan church pastor, Ostrander left the ministry after six years and later embraced atheism. He joined The Clergy Project in 2011 and has been instrumental in its growth, helping it reach well over 1300 participants worldwide. Under his leadership, the organization offers a private online community, career transition assistance, and subsidized psychotherapy sessions to support ex-clergy in their journey.
Ostrander discussed the challenges religious leaders face when leaving faith, particularly in a climate increasingly influenced by Christian nationalism. Ostrander highlighted the issues of losing community, family, and livelihood, especially for those from fundamentalist backgrounds. The interview detailed how The Clergy Project supports atheists transitioning out of religious roles, emphasizing resilience and career shifts, such as social work or psychology. Ostrander noted reduced media attention on clergy leaving religion and shared experiences from secular movements, including The Satanic Temple and large-scale events like SatanCon and the World Humanist Congress.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are with Lon Ostrander from The Clergy Project. You recently experienced the American election. Will this make things more difficult for those looking to leave religious leadership or who have already left it over the next four years?
Lon Ostrander: Oh, probably more difficult because we’ll see Christian nationalism continue to influence society, and it will likely be more challenging. However, this means we have more work to do.
Of course, The Clergy Project is a 501(c)(3) organization, so we’re not directly involved in politics, but we are certainly aware of what’s happening around us.
Jacobsen: Speaking personally, not as a board member or president but as a participant in the project, what is your assessment of the situation for those deeply entrenched in religious leadership who believe in the more extreme rhetoric that has been propagated in recent years, even before the recent rise of Christian nationalism?
Ostrander: Religious individuals can sometimes be inclined to believe irrational or extreme ideas, and that will continue. It’s a significant problem, but those of us within The Clergy Project have a different perspective. We have been brave enough to admit, first to ourselves and then to others, that we no longer believe. This acknowledgment means we have work to do, whether politically active or not.
Jacobsen: How significant do you think the numbers are of people who are on the fence or do not believe but still preach compared to those who have come forward?
Ostrander: We can’t know for certain, but I suspect the number is quite high. Religious leaders often study theology and religious doctrines. They are typically well-educated in those areas, so many harbor serious doubts. However, many are heavily invested in their vocation and may be financially secure, with significant commitments. Admitting disbelief can have many negative consequences for most people.
Jacobsen: What are some consequences people face when they leave religious leadership?
Ostrander: They will, of course, lose their community. Religious leaders often live in a bubble where most of the people they know are part of that religion, church, or culture. Losing their community is almost certain. They very often stand to lose their families as well, and they will inevitably lose their livelihoods. Many Christian religious leaders live in church-provided housing so that they can face homelessness. This is a challenging transition. The shift is smoother for some as they find new careers and don’t face many worries. Others join The Clergy Project after they have long left religious leadership and established other means of making a living, drawn by an interest in the community.
Jacobsen: What has the experience been like in The Clergy Project community following the loss of Daniel Dennett?
Ostrander: We have yet to have extensive discussions within our community about it. I can’t fully account for that, although he was foundational in supporting The Clergy Project. There are various levels of belief among those who stop believing while still preaching. Some people even form communities where they are known as nonbelievers or atheists.
Jacobsen: There are atheist preachers. Regarding their qualifications, they still belong to a particular Christian denomination. For example, Gretta Vosper is an atheist at West Hill United Church in Canada. For others, the context can be less amicable. You alluded to one direct consequence: if they are in community-provided housing, they become homeless after leaving. What other conditions under which people in their community can reach a negotiated middle ground, and in which contexts does that not happen?
Ostrander: Gretta Vosper is a rare exception, far from typical and extraordinarily unusual. I can’t think of anyone else who has transitioned like that. Many of our members try to leave their vocation and denomination while causing minimal disruption and distrust within their congregation.
But there is no one else like Gretta.
Jacobsen: How does the media cover this topic in the United States? The United States has a much larger religious population than Canada, with significantly more Christians. Even per capita, the number is much higher than in Canada. How does the media typically report cases of clergy who come out as nonbelievers and then leave their church or community?
Ostrander: It was covered more in our early years when the media found this topic unusual and difficult to understand. The majority of mainstream media figures are religious themselves, whether they make it obvious or not. It was seen as a peculiarity, which provided some reasons for them to feature stories on The Clergy Project during its early days. However, we don’t see much of that anymore.
We’re still here, but the media’s focus has shifted. I get requests for interviews, but major publications or TV networks don’t contact us for interviews—that’s very rare. We would jump at the opportunity, but the attention has pretty much subsided at this point.
Jacobsen: Do you think that’s happened to many secular organizing groups for particular secular populations, especially after the mid-2010s? There was a surge in secular movements around the mid-2000s to the mid-2010s, perhaps even later into the 2010s.
Ostrander: Yes, that has been a common story. We would have to say something outrageous to get attention now. But yes, it’s pretty quiet out there.
Jacobsen: What would you consider one of the more dramatic cases in the American context of someone who left their church or became an atheist pastor, and how did the community and media react to it?
Ostrander: I’m not thinking of anything specific right now. It’s generally more on a personal level. We’re aware of people going through the transition, dealing with divorce, and facing job difficulties. That’s pretty typical, especially among those from more fundamentalist denominations, where it is far more traumatic.
Jacobsen: Is it primarily centered around marriage stability and job searching?
Ostrander: A lot of it, yes. Very often, the spouse doesn’t know what’s happening in the mind of their religious leader partner. When they finally come to admit it, it can go either way. We’ve heard of cases where clergy people dreaded telling their spouse they no longer believed. Sometimes, it goes well, and sometimes, the reaction is, “No kidding, Sherlock. It’s about time you figured this out. Let’s get out of here.” That happens, too.
Jacobsen: Those most knowledgeable about the current political moment in the United States often spent their time training, studying, and teaching the Bible. Those who have left have both perspectives now: the experience of praying sincerely, preaching the Bible’s truth and the resurrection of Jesus, and the perspective of leaving all that behind. This includes the existential aspects of livelihood and marriage stability, the intellectual counters to those beliefs, and the practicality of prayer, versus solving problems yourself. What was the biggest insight when making that transition and having time to reflect?
Ostrander: The primary thing that leads religious leaders, and Christians in general, to move away from their faith is reading and studying the Bible itself. The common thread for most of us is realizing that the Bible presents many problems. It’s certainly not the inerrant word of a god that doesn’t exist. We see contradictions, historical errors, and inconsistencies, and it stops making sense. That realization is quite common. We often agree that what the world needs is more atheists—and more people reading the Bible because that’s how we’ll create more atheists.
Jacobsen: What about trends and patterns? In many interviews I’ve conducted, people describe a transitional process when leaving their faith. They may stop believing in God but still hold onto cultural customs, and some even continue to pray. It’s strange behavior when you’ve given up the main god concept. What has been your experience of people having a crisis of faith while you were a religious leader, and what have you observed on the opposite side when they’re dealing with, “What do I do now?” How do they generally transition out? Are there particular pain points that they hold onto for the longest time? Are certain aspects the first to go because they no longer make sense, or do some people abandon everything simultaneously, like those who quit smoking cold turkey?
Ostrander: People’s experiences vary widely. Some let go of everything simultaneously, while others struggle and hold onto certain aspects for a long time. The cultural and habitual parts of religion—like praying, attending church, or observing religious customs—are often the hardest to let go of, even when belief in God has waned. It can be like muscle memory. For many, the existential and emotional pain points, such as the fear of losing community and identity, can linger the longest. Conversely, the intellectual aspects, like accepting the implausibility of religious doctrines, are often the first to fall away once someone begins questioning seriously.
Ostrander: For a few of us, it happens all at once. It dawns on us one day that none of it makes any sense, and it doesn’t work for us personally, prompting the need to move on with our lives. But that’s always easier said than done.
Jacobsen: That’s good to know. It’s important to clarify that within The Clergy Project, all members are atheists. Can you explain the process for becoming part of the community?
Ostrander: Yes, it’s crucial to note that we don’t admit anyone to The Clergy Project until they can demonstrate that they no longer hold any supernatural beliefs. We have a screening process where potential members are interviewed. Once they pass what we refer to as the “no faith test,” they are admitted into the community.
Jacobsen: Has this process required some adjustments over time?
Ostrander: Yes, we’ve had to refine our screening process. We don’t engage with people who are still in the midst of a faith crisis. They need to have made up their minds before we admit them. Suppose someone is still questioning the existence of God or the validity of one religion or another. In that case, we refer them to our friends at Recovering from Religion, better equipped to support that stage.
Jacobsen: Darrel Ray would know how to handle that.
Ostrander: We’re not equating religious questioning with agnosticism. While we do have agnostics as well as atheists in our organization, some people who no longer believe don’t want to adopt the term “atheist.” They might prefer “secularist,” “humanist,” or “agnostic,” but the common thread is that we are nonbelievers. We strive to be rational.
Jacobsen: So, even though that transition takes time, ensure everyone is fully transitioned before joining your community?
Ostrander: We ensure members have reached a certain point of clarity before they join so we can provide appropriate support, such as psychological or vocational counseling. People who have been religious leaders their whole lives often can’t imagine doing anything else. They may need more interview skills, resumes, or transferable skills for secular jobs. However, they possess human skills that are valuable in a new context.
And we all have some higher education level, which is certainly better than no education, so those skills transfer. It’s a matter of resilience. Some of us are more resilient than others. But again, the challenges vary greatly for different individuals.
We’ve even had people who have retired from the ministry for 10 years and have no issues. They’re collecting a pension and want to join The Clergy Project. You might wonder why, but it happens. It’s similar to those in the military who wanted out but still wanted their pension.
Jacobsen: That could be it. If someone only needs to make it a few more years, staying seems the easiest option, like the military.
Ostrander: Yes, and they hope their ministry is still doing some good for the community. It becomes an act, and they strive to be the best actors they can be until they can fully find their way out.
Jacobsen: What jobs do people typically transition into after leaving the ministry? The Clergy Project provides a great community. It’s not a livelihood, though.
Ostrander: No, it’s not paid. As for careers, logically, many go into social work. Some return to school to take additional courses and become psychologists. Others may have been IT experts while serving their religious communities and transitioning into tech roles with ease. These are quite common career paths.
Jacobsen: Yes, that makes sense. Thank you, Lon, for your time and insights today.
Ostrander: No problem. It was nice talking to you. I hope that more people become aware of The Clergy Project. Even if they don’t join, they should know we exist.
Photo by Mateus Campos Felipe on Unsplash